... Then is it a Duck? Or am I just pathologically Jealous?
Had lunch at downtown east yesterday with a friend of mine, and he was telling me about how his ex-gf was actually diagnosed with Pathological Jealousy. Many things happened in their year together which kinda raised red flags saying that this was not normal behaviour. But he stuck in there... until in the end he had to get out of the relationship to save himself.
Some of the symptoms she exhibited were - she got very depressed and would not get out of bed when he had friends in Singapore and had to show them around, she'd get violent and fling glasses etc when not getting attention, she deleted every female photo from his hard drive, and she would monitor all his phone calls...
And my friend is a good guy. Not at all the flirty, flash, player sort. The psychiatrist actually advised him to leave the relationship to save himself. And he asked - but what is going to happen to her? And the doctor answered- She'll just have a string of bad relationships until one day she finds someone who will put up with it.
.
Apparently, it's not socially conditioned, this pathological jealousy thing.. but it's already hardwired in the brain!
Although I have never done anything as drastic or violent as her, I am quite a jealous person. I think most people ( women especially) are envious and jealous creatures. I don't put up with much bullshit in general...
But how do we know if our jealousy is normal? There are no real yard sticks for this are there?
I've always been a firm believer in a few mantras in life. One is Play with shit, Smell like shit.
And the other is - If it Walks like a duck, and Quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck!
But now, after hearing my friend's story... it makes me wonder - is it a duck? Or am I just pathologically jealous?!
.
I'll give you an example- Last week, Andy went to a Friday Night expat drinking club. And although I felt uncomfortable with it because I feel that such events tend to be hooking up events. I have never been to one, it's not my scene really, so I cannot say for sure what these events are like. But I did mention to him that I was uncomfortable, but he reassured me that he was only going out for a couple of drinks and a laugh.
.
A couple of drinks ended up being a night out till 4 am. (I don't stay with him, obviously, but he mentioned it the next day... so that's how I know)
And while I was lunching with him the next day, he read an SMS and started smiling at his phone. I assumed that it's his mate at work sending him a joke or something. It did strike me as odd, because he usually doesn't do this. In fact, when we first started going out (last month) he did make it a big point to say that he was not the sort to asnwer calls while on a date or in conversation and he was thoughtful like that and he appreciated it when people didn't answer calls etc when out having dinner etc with him...
Well anyway, I asked what was so funny. And he said oh it's just a girl from last night's drinking club.
(!!!)
I think I did well (given my jealous nature) to not lose sleep when he went out Friday night without me to a drinking club full of strangers, and I didn't gripe about a couple of drinks stretching to 4am, but should I be ok with him taking other girls' numbers while he's out at these things?
He said they exchanged numbers purely as friends, and she's ugly and he's not attracted to her that way. And then he showed me a photo of her, TAKEN WITH MY CAMERA mind you!
It's was a blurry photo because they were on the dance floor. And yeah, I don't feel threatened by the way she looks, and if he were doing something wrong, he wouldn't be so open about it, right? But why do I find it distasteful and disrespectful of him to do that? What's wrong with me?
.
I'm still just not comfortable with this. ( Plus, why would a Chinese girl feel the need to hang out with the friday night expat drinking club anyway?? Hmmmm??)
A bit of background here... We are a couple. Of course a very new couple, and anything could happen, I'd say we're still in a getting a feel for each other type of stage. Though we both said we wouldn't date anyone else.
But after that incident, it's like ... hang on a minute... I know he's not dating anyone else... but something doesn't feel right in my gut.
.
Would he be ok if I went out without him one night and gave my phone number to a new guy I met? Even if he were ugly?
He said he trusts me and it would be perfectly ok ... but I think it's a bit different when it's hypothetical than when it actually happens (!). Is it not?
We have a great chemistry together, Andy and I...we have good fun and conversations... we have started talking about trips together. I really really like him a lot. But maybe I should try to slow things down a bit ... and see how it goes... I am afraid, and I feel the need to protect myself... but it's impossible to put a relationship into reverse gear, isn't it?
And then there is that nagging thought in my head now that maybe the problem is me? He really hasn't done anything wrong. I am pathologically jealous and I should just deal with it, instead of giving up on what could possibly be a great relationship?
.
What do you think? Am I over reacting about this phone number thing or are my feelings towards the issue valid?
Had lunch at downtown east yesterday with a friend of mine, and he was telling me about how his ex-gf was actually diagnosed with Pathological Jealousy. Many things happened in their year together which kinda raised red flags saying that this was not normal behaviour. But he stuck in there... until in the end he had to get out of the relationship to save himself.
Some of the symptoms she exhibited were - she got very depressed and would not get out of bed when he had friends in Singapore and had to show them around, she'd get violent and fling glasses etc when not getting attention, she deleted every female photo from his hard drive, and she would monitor all his phone calls...
And my friend is a good guy. Not at all the flirty, flash, player sort. The psychiatrist actually advised him to leave the relationship to save himself. And he asked - but what is going to happen to her? And the doctor answered- She'll just have a string of bad relationships until one day she finds someone who will put up with it.
.
Apparently, it's not socially conditioned, this pathological jealousy thing.. but it's already hardwired in the brain!
Although I have never done anything as drastic or violent as her, I am quite a jealous person. I think most people ( women especially) are envious and jealous creatures. I don't put up with much bullshit in general...
But how do we know if our jealousy is normal? There are no real yard sticks for this are there?
I've always been a firm believer in a few mantras in life. One is Play with shit, Smell like shit.
And the other is - If it Walks like a duck, and Quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck!
But now, after hearing my friend's story... it makes me wonder - is it a duck? Or am I just pathologically jealous?!
.
I'll give you an example- Last week, Andy went to a Friday Night expat drinking club. And although I felt uncomfortable with it because I feel that such events tend to be hooking up events. I have never been to one, it's not my scene really, so I cannot say for sure what these events are like. But I did mention to him that I was uncomfortable, but he reassured me that he was only going out for a couple of drinks and a laugh.
.
A couple of drinks ended up being a night out till 4 am. (I don't stay with him, obviously, but he mentioned it the next day... so that's how I know)
And while I was lunching with him the next day, he read an SMS and started smiling at his phone. I assumed that it's his mate at work sending him a joke or something. It did strike me as odd, because he usually doesn't do this. In fact, when we first started going out (last month) he did make it a big point to say that he was not the sort to asnwer calls while on a date or in conversation and he was thoughtful like that and he appreciated it when people didn't answer calls etc when out having dinner etc with him...
Well anyway, I asked what was so funny. And he said oh it's just a girl from last night's drinking club.
(!!!)
I think I did well (given my jealous nature) to not lose sleep when he went out Friday night without me to a drinking club full of strangers, and I didn't gripe about a couple of drinks stretching to 4am, but should I be ok with him taking other girls' numbers while he's out at these things?
He said they exchanged numbers purely as friends, and she's ugly and he's not attracted to her that way. And then he showed me a photo of her, TAKEN WITH MY CAMERA mind you!
It's was a blurry photo because they were on the dance floor. And yeah, I don't feel threatened by the way she looks, and if he were doing something wrong, he wouldn't be so open about it, right? But why do I find it distasteful and disrespectful of him to do that? What's wrong with me?
.
I'm still just not comfortable with this. ( Plus, why would a Chinese girl feel the need to hang out with the friday night expat drinking club anyway?? Hmmmm??)
A bit of background here... We are a couple. Of course a very new couple, and anything could happen, I'd say we're still in a getting a feel for each other type of stage. Though we both said we wouldn't date anyone else.
But after that incident, it's like ... hang on a minute... I know he's not dating anyone else... but something doesn't feel right in my gut.
.
Would he be ok if I went out without him one night and gave my phone number to a new guy I met? Even if he were ugly?
He said he trusts me and it would be perfectly ok ... but I think it's a bit different when it's hypothetical than when it actually happens (!). Is it not?
We have a great chemistry together, Andy and I...we have good fun and conversations... we have started talking about trips together. I really really like him a lot. But maybe I should try to slow things down a bit ... and see how it goes... I am afraid, and I feel the need to protect myself... but it's impossible to put a relationship into reverse gear, isn't it?
And then there is that nagging thought in my head now that maybe the problem is me? He really hasn't done anything wrong. I am pathologically jealous and I should just deal with it, instead of giving up on what could possibly be a great relationship?
.
What do you think? Am I over reacting about this phone number thing or are my feelings towards the issue valid?
Comments
If i were u, i would probably do the same as what u did!
Give him breathing space to do what he likes to do, to meet friends and all, but also expect him to be sensitive enough not to do anything that will hurt the relationship, especially since the relationship is still in the budding stage.
Share your thoughts with him! So that he knows that this matter, though may be trivial to him, affects u and hopefully will spare a thought for u.
All the best!
he believes what he does and he definitely likes the attention. to me, its complete bullshit. if its as such so early on, what more later?
i say, go with your gut.
xoxo, faith.
I identify very much with your pathological jealousy, having been played before by someone. It has since been my belief that guys who need to get numbers of strange girls in clubs (ugly or not - and guys always claim the other girl is 'ugly' because they know how jealous girls are! When I saw the 'ugly' girl my ex described, I realised something was really wrong because she was a pan-asian model and even a straight girl like me finds her attractive!) aren't ready to commit to just one relationship yet. Especially if he's not the kind of guy who grew up with many sisters and has good female bffs. (I see this kind of as a sign if he's able to handle platonic relationships with females). Although, imho no female-male relationship can be truly 100% platonic, unless she's like grossly overweight, 3 times his size and super ugly.
My advice is...if that's the message he's sending you by his actions - true, your relationship is in its budding stage, and he's entitled to living life like a swinging bachelor - then you're free to do the same. In fact, I would even encourage you to meet and exchange numbers with other guys who might be even better than this guy for you. If this guy thinks you're enough for him to commit to this relationship, this could be a wake-up call for him to get his act together. If it doesn't bother him one bit, then maybe it's a sign he's not at that stage yet...in which case you should probably 'shop' around for better deals while waiting to see if things change.
Think also about whether you could tolerate such behavior from him if you and him got real serious...in the case where he's not going to change.
then again, why didnt you go to the drinking thing with him?
I guess letting him know what you are ok with (and not) directly but not in a confrontational way is a good start. Sometimes people are serious and want to do right by their partner, but they have no idea that they are doing something that is considered unacceptable by their partners.
Now that you have told him your boundaries and what you felt regarding the issue, I guess you just have to see what happens. Hopefully things turn out alight.
keep them coming...
It's good to hear tht I am not alone in feeling uncomfortable with his actions. After hearing my friend's Pathologically Jealous ex, it made me worry - what if it IS ME??? WHat if I never settle with someone until i find someone who will "put up" with my "disorder".
But then I know it would make me sad and upset all the time if i just accepted it and this is how he lives his life/treats relationships.
He's not a bad person. But tht was a red flag in my books. Just not sure if it's just me being crazy or if tht's not ptoper "in a r'ship" behaviour...
wld be interesting to see what the guys think... ( I assume the commments so far were from women?)
@anon 7.31- at first I wasn''t invited. then just before he left for the event, I was talking to him on the phone, and he mentioned he was goin for this thing... then he kinda invited me - "Awww.. baby... if i knew u weren't doing anything tonight, I would have invited you to come"
but i live in pasir ris la.. not about to jump in the cab and scoot all the way to town just for "a couple of drinks"
Your reaction is definitely normal and not some kind of disorder cos I can tell you most of us women will feel the same. I wouldn't like it if my bf (new some more!) went out drinking n then frolicking int he dance floor with another girl...But there're a couple of possibilities...
First, there's really something wrong and that you need to raise the red flag...actually I tend to go with this cos if you think about it, if it's purely a friendship number exchange, I wouldn't text the guy the next day...why so soon? What's the hurry? You know what I mean? So I actually suspect there might be some kind of flirting...
Another possibility is that the girl in question is some kind of slutty hussy who's hitting on him. Imagine this...the girl wanna snag him and then forcing her number on him...like "oh why don't you take my number?" and Andy just took it out of being polite and of course if I'm the girl, I would ask his too. And since she's on the prowl she would definitely text him the next day and it might be true that he's not interested...
But what I find really uncomfy is that why only invite you last minute? Cos if I'm a man in an exclusive relationship with a new girl, I would actually ask her to go with me, as in planned ahead and ask say 2 3 days before and not last minute...so I really don't like that bit where he said he would have asked you to go if he knew you weren't doing anything on friday...
So I'd say observe him and see if there's anything dodgy...you mention that he's relatively new to Singapore? A lot of expats who just got here actually relish on the attention the SPGs throw at them... So be careful holly!
I would feel exactly the same. Even though being open and letting you know seem to make him look like he has nothing to hide but somehow i feel he is also trying to est the water n your acceptance level. If you have always stressed on honestly and being open about things, he would probably think that by telling you, he ain't done nothing wrong and if you do not react, he will probably keep doing it camouflaging such acts with things like "she is ugy, she is fat she is blah blah blah" to lower your guard.
Anyway I believe that if a guy is serious about you, once he made up his mind to start dating you, he shoul shut his door on OTHER women's attention and stay focus. I mean if you can do it why not him.
My advise: do not get uberly serious and yes you should just date abit more. dun settle and dun accept something that u cannot accept. you have the rights to follow your rule book of dating too
I totally agreed with wat the above 2 readers commented.
Nevertheless, trust need to be earned. I'm not sure how you reacted after he told you the details but i assumed u did voice out your unhappiness? We may have blown the issue out of proportion, but its impt that he knws exactly how u feel & tat such thing will hinder the progress of the r'ship
But 1 thing I need to give him credit. He was honest about telling you it was a gal he got to knw from the event. I mean he could possibly lied abt it & u will nvr get to knw.
Meanwhile, continue to enjoy the dating process with your eyes wide open! All the best
but again, it's a good thing he didn't try to hide from u. there are a lot of things to adjust and adapt to between two people starting out in a r/s.
I've been lurking on your blog for some time. However, I feel compelled to comment on this post.
I agree with the other commenters here that you should trust your gut feeling. If you feel something is wrong, something probably is.
Haven't there been any instances in the past when you rationalized away your intuition, only to realize later it was right all along? Think back on those times...
I did that to myself so many times, I now know I must trust my intuition, because it senses or sees something I'm not fully conscious of.
Guard your heart, open your eyes and ears, see and observe.
I wish you all the best. :)
Then again beginning stages of a relationship are awkward. You dont know how much to commit and where to draw the line.
Either ways, i think its better to talk it out so that the both of you are on the same page.
What in the world was the sms she sent him? Do you know - it all depends on that doesn't it?
My boyfriend sends msgs to girlfriends all the time too, even his ex. I was at first really alarmed, but then he started letting me see the smses and they were nothing, then i checked up on him and slowly, realised he was right. They were nothing.
There is no platonic relationship between a guy and a girl. From a normal SMS, it can go on to flirting, and then casual outings as "friends"... You never know what will happen right?
Turns out, she liked him and asking him for advice was just a decoy....and the whole saga did create havoc to our relationship...its still not completely mended yet.
So, sometimes please be on your guard. 'Nothing' can very well spring into 'Something' nasty.
Btw, I am the same gal who left a comment on your article at the NS portal regarding dating someone new in town..rem my story?
luv
Inez
A woman's instinct's really powerful sometimes, never doubt it.
Moreover, some gals can be soooo forward and bold esp those freaking spgs !!! I still recalled once this real estate agent who went out of her line of duty by msging my ex-aussie bf in middle of night asking what is he doing and that she's thinking ofhim despite the fact that she knew he was scouting for a place for him and his then gf(me!). What a biaaatchh. He ignored her msg and it ended there.
I'd be careful if I were u.
Anyway, V is right that some women are so bloody bold that they know the guy has a gf or is married and will STILL hit on them. I bloody hate these bitches cos they have no respect for themselves and the gf. My current bf's ex is such and she msn-ed my bf, chatted, found out that he's now with me and happily attached and you know what she said to him? (she's always got a bf btw) "I miss you and I actually miss having sex with you" Like WTF right? Thing is, she recently wanted to meet him for dinner and I did say that I'm not comfortable with it and he canceled it (hopefully it's canceled and not rescheduled). I think if a guy really really cares for you, he would do whatever to make you feel assured and I don't think A is doing that. And I think it's super insincere that he only asked you to go join him when he called cos you mean he just assumes you got something? No way! It's cos he probably planned to go without you anyway! Not good babe, you deserve better! If it doesn't feel right, pull the plug...at least for now! I hope it'll turn out okay for you
Was too 'lax' with my ex. Too lax that even when he was making trips to M'sia every weekend, I never once questioned him. Never joined him either. I was like this cos I believed in having space for ourselves :/
So in the end, he left me. Reason: I was too lax, didn't seem to care much abt our r/s(we were together for about 4 yrs), and he managed to find someone who cared.
But of cos I was pissed that he blamed me for it. Haha, but but but am totally over it now. Just that I'm now VERY jaded..
-Jaded Girl
I'm not a pathologically jealous person and I got to say HELLO, RED FLAG!! Guys don't take numbers from women they're not interested in.:). So what if she's ugly?? Ugly women have sex too! There's a difference between a guy who enjoys attention, feels good about it and walks away and a guy who enjoys attention so much that he even gives his number to an ugly woman!!! What'll happen if a beautiful woman hits on him. He's a CHEATER for sure. If he hasn't as yet, he will. Don't say I didn't warn you. XX
u know... all of u are raising the exact same sentiments that I feel in my gut.
But help me rationalize here... (I'm not negating what u all have said. It all makes sense.)
but what about - Self confidence? I was always told in the past that if I feel threatened by a BF's closeness to any other girl it means I am insecure and not confident.
Then... another thing is... so for the rest of our lives together, Andy cannot make any new Friends who are girls???
I know myself that I don't need any more friends (thts also a sign of security btw... I always feel that ppl who constantly need to be liked by others and always wanting to be part of a group/clique ARE THE INSECURE ones in the first place). I digress. Well, if i faced a life where I cldnt meet and make any more male friends. I'd be FINE with it. But I cannot possibly expect the same from my partner right???
What do you think?
I think being a couple together, it's not nice & not acceptable to portray himself/herself as single&available when your SO is not beside you.
hmm Maybe i might ask "so you only took photos and number from this girl? didn't get to know any other guy friends around?" haha
eg. people saying feeling insecure is a lack of confidence. its not true.
in this case, really, don't over rationalise away your gut feelings. there's a reason why you have them. plenty of men out there want you, you don't have to put up with something like this, what more in the beginning. sometimes, don't believe reasons or explanations, they were made to sound convincing.
Everyone is afraid of losing the other party if a lot of time and emotions are invested in. Unless no longer in love or no longer interesting.
The question of making new friends or new gal friends is not the crux of the problem. The issue lies with the personality traits, moral values, the lifestyle he is having.......habits are hard to break.....
Nevertheless......red flag.
But again i know you will still carry on with this relationship because you know your beauty&youth do not last forever.
You will deceive yourself like any previous girls in his life.
Solution: choose a guy who u really think can stay faithful to u (be it based on his religion, character, lack of $, looks etc).
if u don't choose this way, then be prepared to feel insecure.
we can't help that God made men promiscuous and women needy. cheers:)
He's trying to tell you that he's got girls hitting on him in the hope that you would bed him soon so as to keep him.
If he's serious about you in the first place, what he did (which was a really bad move btw) would caused you to run the opposite way. He would never have done it in the first place.
I raised this issue again this evening (since I'm more assured now tht it's not just me being pathalogically jealous)...
and he just never saw it the way I did. he thought of it as harmless, and he also took a number of a guy there too ( but i dont think they're texting each other).
I guess he has a different perspective on relationships from me... to him this was trivial.. but to me I read so much into that one action.
(But I will still take things slow. be guarded for a while...I don't want to get hurt.)
The easy option would be to quit. And just look for another man. THat's easy... when I date... I date like a maniac anyway... bound to find someone that is of good potential again.
But if i keep fleeing everytime something doesnt suit me... how will anything last?
its me again.
good things are worth the wait.
you are worth the wait! you are in this for a long term r.s no?
i especially like how anon 11.33 puts it: "You will deceive yourself like any previous girls in his life."
like i have said above, go with your gut.
xoxo, faith
First off (even if you don't like being called one) Holly you are a smart girl. So I am not going to waist your time babying you, and it seems abundantly clear (to me) that you have been down this road before, you know where it goes. Don't you?
Maybe I need to write you a little article about TRUTH (what it is and how to find it).
His actions seem to either exhibit primarily ignorant or inconsiderate behavior. I'll reserve my conclusion on the mater for about... oh, how long it takes you to finish reading my post. In the mean time I would be much obliged if you would participate in answering a few simple questions.
The way he handled the situation is poor either way you stack it but one is more redeemable than the other. So lets test the truth of the quandary shall we?
Do you think he acted the way he did because he didn't know any better (lack of experience), or because he just cares about himself (selfish). The main factor to find the Truth of the question is How experienced is he? Is he a 19 year old that has only ever been on 6 dates, or is he 29 and been on 600 dates? If he has little or no experience with dating then ignorance to proper behavior may be excusable, but if experienced then these actions have become habit and shows indication to greater behavioral problems. There you have it, you can now answer this one question on your own.
Now for the second part, are you a pathological wakado jealous nut job?
Just answer this question, are you entertaining the idea at all that you are? If you answered YES (obviously cause I'm posting in your blog entry), then ... (let the suspence build) ... No you are not. Why, you may ask. Well simple those who suffer from extreme behavioral problems are too mentally unstable to ever question their own state of mind let alone ever take fault (accountability) for their problems.
If you can't tell already by the LOGICAL arguments presented that I am obviously not female. (now all the ladies roll their eyes and say "he must be single")
Now for my professional opinion (yes, reading your blog for a couple days makes me a certifiable psychiatrist) I do think he is exhibiting some rather self centered behavior to which would indicate the relationship is on the downward slope. As such I would recommend riding that short bus a little while longer, but keep your eyes out for a better option. But wait, there's a twist!, Who's at fault you or him? BOTH. I may explicate on that point more on a later date as any who read this are probably saying "when's he going to shut up already!" In regard to you HJ, you're obviously completely stone cold raving quakers (you have to read it with a cheesy imitation british accent for fa-lair). and i wouldn't have you any other way ;-)
PS: The picture and caption for the article is hilarious cause that girl looks Freaking psycho. (most guys probably saying, "huh huh, I'ld hit it")
I think you should take it slow with him and don't let your life revolves around him YET. Pursue your dreams and shine...! Let him sweat and work harder to get you. Give him a little competition. Soon, he will learn how to treasure you with his honesty. :-)
I think you are scared of getting deeper into a new relationship and so you are trying to find anything or something to to justify your fear. Its just human nature ....
Sometimes men don't treasure what comes easily for them. No, I'm not saying that you're easy. I'm just saying... let them work a little harder for you.
You're a very nice lady, a very pretty one at that. You should be steering the man, not the other way round.
I hope you meet one who truly deserves you.
My boyfriend had an ex who was pathologically jealous all the time. And this led to him cheating on her. I will not give consensus to him, for what he did wasn't right. However, I do understand that dating someone who has some what a constant OCD on you can be rather stressful. Of course, in any relationships, we want the best out of our partners, hoping they'll provide us with the idea of lifelong happiness.
My boyfriend was truthful enough to confide in me the mistake he made then. Of course, every once a while I would get a little prissy when he's going out with another girl. But as time goes and you start to realize you can trust him.
My point here is, Holly, don't worry. It's ok to feel some greens. And even if your gut feeling is true, there's nothing much you can do but move on. I suppose now, only time can tell.
I wondered many years ago about who has the right to "dictate" boundaries and permissions in a relationship when I was going out with my first boyfriend who had rather "friendly" relations with many females.
I do believe platonic friendships between genders are possible.
However when one is in an exclusive romantic relationship, whether it is budding or familiar, I've concluded that it is important for both people to feel comfortable with what the other is doing in any situation.
It doesn't matter what the world states is "status quo", what they think is "possessive", what's "submissive". How does one quantify any of that in perfect balance?
It's what my partner thinks, what he feels that is acceptable to him or her that should matter most to me.
If I did what Andy did, and it hurt my partner even mildly, I'd pause to think if my partner meant enough to me to give up this sort of "harmless" friendliness.
And because exchanging numbers with this stranger might send her the signal that I'm not ready to be exclusive to one partner, it might potentially humiliate my partner.
How I represent my partner and the way I feel about her should be present in my actions if they are present in my thoughts.
Plus, if we look at this from the perspective of the intelligent and intuitive beings that we are, the intentions behind exchanging numbers with a stranger (especially one of the opposite sex) other than for the purpose of business networking, seems to me rather obvious.
Good luck with this one, babe!!
i think it's perfectly normal to feel this way.
ask him.. Do not assume..
Assumption is the mother of all fuck up..